---

The Ravens’ Sister

by Natalia Theodoridou

There are many ways to tell this story.

All of them are true.

 

---

Verses of the House

1. I have seven ravens for brothers.
2. My brothers went to war and came back black-feathered, bead-eyed; they fell on our battened door, demanding entrance. Father knew it was them as soon as they barged in and took their familiar places in our room: Zoran by the east-facing window, now shattered and taped shut with newspapers; Aleksandar by the door, standing guard; Mihailo on the table, tucking his broken wing behind him; Goran on the cupboard which used to be our fridge; Đorđe on Father’s shoulder, pecking at his greyed hair; Vukašin, the youngest, at the gutted armchair, by Father’s feet; and Slobodan kept flying in circles near the ceiling, breathing the night air from the hole in the roof.
3. This city is made of rubble and rust. I rummage through the debris for edibles. Sometimes I find tin cans. Or just things to burn. These are good too.
4. Nothing grows here any more. My brothers fly out at dawn and come back when the sun plunges again behind the broken skyline of the city. Their mouths smell of death. They stand on one leg and watch over us all night long. Dark plumage covers my eyes and suffocates my dreams.
5. Senka, Father said to me one day. I can no longer live like this. I want my boys back, he said. I want to hug their bodies, run my fingers through their hair. Kiss their wounds. I’d rather lay them in the ground as men than have them here as birds until the day I die.
6. Can a raven change back into a man? Can a man become a raven and then again a man, or will he always be a bird, deep down? Were my brothers men when they went to war? Had they always had the hearts of birds?
7. Change them back, Father said. Find a way. Change them back, Senka.
8. And so I walked through the city and peeked through the bullet holes in the walls, not knowing what I was looking for. I walked from morning till noon, when the sun blazed hot on my skin. I walked on the black asphalt until it burnt the soles of my shoes and the air trembled, boiling where it stood. And then the luminous man appeared at the crossroads between the north side, where death reigned, and the south side, where death reigned too. And the man said, what do you seek, girl? And I said, my brothers are men no more. I want my brothers back. And the man said, I know what you have to do. Come closer. And I asked, who are you? Come closer, he said. He kept still, emanating heat. Come closer. And I did, I walked towards him and I felt all the water in my body evaporate through my skin. You are too hot, I said. And he said, as hot as the Sun, am I? Let me hold you, girl, he said, and I’ll tell you how to get your brothers back. I walked closer. But if you hold me, you will burn me, I said, and I will die. And the Sun said, then you won’t care about your brothers any more, will you? Let me hold you, stupid girl.
9. I ran away. The Sun stood motionless, blazing away like a man in eruption, turning the heart of the city to ash.
10. I walked through the city from noon till dusk. I walked along its highways and I passed through its alleys. I heard music coming from a bombed building in the wasteland that used to be the west sector. I followed it. I climbed the storeys, with rubble giving way under my feet and plaster dust falling on my head, turning my hair white. Like an old woman, I arrived at the roof, and I saw the ghosts dance.
11. They were not all ghosts. There was a girl in a nightgown and a boy in torn jeans, wrapped around one another and swaying like seaweeds in the current. There were men who used to be soldiers, but not any more, and women who used to be soldiers, but not any more, and they were dancing to badly broadcast jazz and folk songs with lots of static and Red Cross reports and the sound of exploding hand grenades making human fireworks against the night sky. And in the middle of the crowd was the dazzling man, in a white petticoat and top hat, in silver hair and confetti and a trumpet in one hand. He spotted me right away. Come here, girl, he said, what’s your name, girl, tell us your name. Senka, I said. Means shadow, he said. You smell good for a shadow. Come closer, Senka, don’t stand in the shadows, let us get a good look at you. I went closer and said I’m looking for a way to turn my raven brothers into men, can you tell me how? And the dazzling man smiled and his teeth glinted with a light of their own, like gems, like little cold fires, like stars. Like stars. Come closer, little Senka, the star-toothed man said, let me take a bite, just a little tiny bite, and I’ll tell you where to go. Will it hurt, I asked, will you hurt me? Of course I will, he said. I walked closer and let him put his fingers on my face. I’ll just take a nibble out of your shadow, little Senka, he said; you won’t even know it’s missing.
12. He licked his fingers afterwards. The Glass Mountain, he said, that’s what you’re looking for. Go east. You’ll know it when you see it. He smiled wide. His teeth shone brighter now, washing the city in starlight.
13. I left the carnivorous Moon of the Balkans playing his trumpet behind me while my shadow limped ahead.
14. I walked east until I could no longer hear the music from the building and the starlight grew dimmer and dimmer, dissipating into daybreak. And then I was there, and I could walk no more.
15. This city is encrusted in glass. There is a wall at the edge of the city, made of glass, as tall as a mountain, as wide as the Earth.
16. I stood by the glass wall at the edge of the city, pressed my fingers against its surface and left no fingerprints. I walked along the wall, heard the silence, tasted the lifelessness. I walked under the dead trees and on the grey grass, I trod on the shards from the shattered windows of the world. Hello? I asked. Is anyone here?
17. Hello, a voice said. Look up, Senka.
18. The naked boy was perched on a branch. His pale skin glowed under the first light of day. Who are you, I asked, how do you know my name? Don’t you recognise me, Senka? the boy asked. You’ve seen me so many times before. You used to talk to me often, when you were younger. You used to say: Morning Star, why don’t you come down and play with me, for my brothers are big and mean and don’t want their little sister around. But you never came down before, I said. Why now? The Morning Star shrugged. The world’s different now, he said. Can you help me into the Glass Mountain? I asked. I could, he said. See that keyhole there? It needs flesh. If this were the world as it was before, I would give you a rabbit’s foot to open it, but there are no rabbits around any more. All I can give you now is a butcher knife to do what you have to do. These are the times we live in, dear Senka. I wish I had played with you when you were young and happy.
19. And with that, the Morning Star handed me the knife. Then he climbed to the top of his tree and fell upwards to the sky.
20. I chopped off my left index finger and slipped it through the keyhole. It fit perfectly. The wall parted and I went through. I found nothing on the other side: only a hole in the ground. What is this? I asked. You’ve made a sacrifice to enter, the hole said. What is it you desire? I want my raven brothers to be as they used to, I said. Can you do that? It is done, the hole said. Go home, little Senka.
21. And so I walked back home, not caring about my bleeding finger and my limping shadow, for I was to see my brothers again after all this time.
22. I found Father kneeling in front of our home, his pants all dusty, his head in his hands. He was crying onto the ground. What did you do, Senka? he asked. They are there, but I can’t see them any more, he said. I hear them flutter about, I feel them breeze past me, but I can’t see them. What did you do?
23. I walked in. I heard their wings, felt their feathers on my face. The dust swirled in their passage, as if touched by a wind.
24. I used to have seven brothers. They were soldiers. My brothers have the souls of ravens.
25. Father and I sleep on the floor every night. My brothers watch over us. Ghost plumage fills the air. I leave messages for them on the floor, write the words in the dust with my missing finger. In the morning, they are gone.

---

Verses of the City

1. I have seven brothers. They went to war and came back heroes.
2. The first brother is Slobodan, the free man. He died in the war. My brothers brought back his body wrapped in a soiled sheet. Father kept him in his arms all night long, his eldest son; he rocked him like a baby, even though Slobodan was twice his size. Then he buried him in the hard ground by the door using only his hands. He bled on my brother’s grave, but didn’t let anyone help.
3. The second brother is Đorđe, the farmer, always by Father’s side, working the land with him. There is nothing left for him to do now: the earth has been sown with salt and gunpowder. Nothing will ever grow here again. Đorđe sits on the ground outside our home sometimes. He puts his ear to the ground and whispers love songs to the soil.
4. The third brother is Mihailo, he who is like God. He came back missing an arm. He sits at the table all day, sleeps sitting in his wooden chair at night. Sometimes he wakes up muffling a scream. Then he fingers his empty sleeve, as if expecting to find something there. As if he hopes the war had been a dream.
5. The fourth brother is Zoran, the daybreak. Before the war, he used to sit at the east-facing window, watching the sunrise every morning. The window is now shattered and papered over with old newspapers and pages from books of obsolete wisdom. Zoran sits there in the morning, looking through the papers as if he can still see the Sun.
6. The fifth brother is Goran, the tall one. Goran came back from the war, kissed our father three times on the cheeks, and then turned around and left. He didn’t even look back once. We never saw him again.
7. The sixth brother is Aleksandar, the protector of men. He used to be the guardian of the family, standing by the door day and night, trying to keep us safe. He no longer knows what to do with himself. Every now and then, he takes long walks in the city with me, pretending safe is still a word.
8. The seventh brother is Vukašin, the little wolf. He is the youngest. By the end of this story, Vukašin will have killed himself.
9. I am Senka. The name means shadow. I am the shadow with the missing finger, chopped off in a story to be told elsewhere, some other time.
10. This city used to have two names and now has none.
11. We won the war. What did we win? A pile of corpses. A potful of dust. A hole in the roof from which to see the stars.
12. There are many like Mihailo in the city now, missing an arm, or a leg, or both. Like a new species, forfeiting the old limbs, showing humanity what’s indispensable and what’s not.
13. We walk through the city and ash falls on our heads like snow. We walk past burning crosses and crescent moons. The hanged man stares down at us. A woman gives out wildflowers to the people on the street. Where did she get them? I haven’t seen flowers in a very long time.
14. The dust on the ground is disturbed by slight gushes of air. Maybe a soul passed us by, Aleksandar says. Or an angel. Someone is firing gunshots at the jaundiced eye of the sky.
15. I stay awake at night, writing in the dust with my missing finger while I listen to my brothers weep through their dreams.
16. At dawn, I point at the morning star, making wishes that I know won’t come true. I hear the mournful croak of a raven through the roof, and make my peace.

---

Verses of the Heart

1. I have seven brothers. The time came when they had to go to war, to defend our country from itself. One afternoon, long before the war ended, I went outside as if something had called me. I saw seven figures walking down the road to our home. My heart almost cracked, from joy and from fear, for the war was not yet over — what were they doing home? As soon as I made out their faces, as soon as they laid eyes on our house, I saw them turn into wide-winged birds one after the other. I ran towards them and managed to wrap my arms around Vukašin, only to find myself kissing black feathers and taloned feet.
2. Word came the next day. My brothers had defected. Mihailo had lost an arm; it was a broken wing now. All the other men from their squad had been killed. My brothers were traitors. When Father heard the news, he took a handful of ash from the stove and smudged his face. Then he grabbed his rifle and tried to shoot my brothers dead.
3. I left the house and walked through this city that used to be my own. I met the Sun at a crossroads and asked him how to turn my brothers back, but he was too hot for me to go near. I watched him incinerate the ground, the trees, the sky, and then walked past him and left him behind. I met the cannibal Balkan Moon on the roof of a building where he partied with the ghosts that used to be my people. I let him take a bite out of my shadow in return for answers. I walked to the edge of the city and found the Glass Mountain. I cut off my finger with a butcher knife gifted to me by the Morning Star, and used it as a key. The open grave at the heart of the Mountain granted my wish, and my brothers were made men again.
4. I went back home trailing blood behind me and found my family gathered around a tree. We used to climb it when we were small. Vukašin’s body was hanging from the lowest branch, like a ripe orange, ready to be picked.
5. Đorđe helped Father cut Vukašin down. They left him on the ground while they dug a hole to put him in. He lay on the dust, staring at the lopsided sky above.
6. Goran and Slobodan turned around and went back, gave themselves up. We heard they were executed the same day.
7. Aleksandar bribed someone high in the military ranks. They left the rest of us alone after that. Zoran tried to repair our home. He started with the window by the stove, the one that faced east. Then he fixed the ceiling. We can no longer see the sky through our roof. We go on living.
8. Mihailo never left the house again. The arm he’d lost, his broken wing, stayed the way it was when he became a man. It is still a wing now. He tucks it behind him as he sits in his chair and looks at me with dark, gleaming eyes. What am I, he asks me. Am I a man or a bird? At night, he sleeps leaning on the table, muffling his cries behind his wing.
9. I go out at dawn and point my missing finger at the Morning Star. Can you hear me? I ask him. Can you keep me company? The naked boy climbs down the orange tree from which Vukašin hanged himself. He holds out his hand for me. Come on, dear Senka, he says. I take his hand and climb up. I sit by him on the branch and write verses in the stardust on the sky.

---

Addendum: Lost verses, stray feathers, things left unsaid

1. Vukašin walked to the back of the ruin he called home. He found the tree he used to climb as a child, once carrying sweet and juicy oranges, now dead as a soldier. He caressed the dry trunk. Old friend, he said. I’m back.
2. Mihailo often dreamt he was a bird with a man’s arms. Sometimes he woke up screaming. Sometimes he wept.
3. Đorđe still whispers love songs to the earth. The neighbors made fun of him for years, but then grew tired of it. Nobody ever knew the earth sang back.
4. When Father saw his sons again, he knew that birds and soldiers are more alike than people think.
5. Senka’s shadow tastes like oranges.

---

Host Commentary

…aaaaand welcome back. That was THE RAVEN’S SISTER by NATALIA THEODORIDOU, and if you enjoyed that, there are many other of his stories in our archives: FIXER, WORKER, SINGER was just chosen by Jen R. Albert for her interview episode and ran only three months ago as episode 804; my personal favourite is RIBBONS from episode 743; but there’s also episodes 591 HIS GIANT HEARTBEAT, 456 MATEUS GOES HIGHER and 381 THE VANDALISTS. There’s also stories over at Escape Pod, PseudoPod and Cast of Wonders, so honestly, if you’ve not had the incredible experience of a Nassos story before, there are so many treats in store for you in the immediate future that I’m a little jealous.

‌

And now, to gush with me about just how incredible his stories are, please welcome back our returning guests for the day:

Summer & Peter Interview

 

 

Matt Dovey

Summer Fletcher and Peter Adrian Behravesh welcome back to the Castle! How are you both?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Excellent. Thank you.

 

Summer Fletcher

Love what you’ve done with the place!

 

Matt Dovey

Flying over ever stranger lands. So much more to see still in the world. First off then, do you both want to introduce yourselves for those listeners who might not have been around for your time in the castle. Summer do you want to go first as you’ve been the Voice here for so long?

 

Summer Fletcher

Sure. I’m Summer, I’ve been editor at Podcastle, Cast of Wonders, Light Speed and Nightmare. I’ve been an author and narrator for Beneath Ceaseless Skies and Podcastle and some other places. As far as game writing, I’ve written for Goodman Games and Wizards of the Coast. I’m working on a title for Choice of Games now. And I also contributed to a visual novel about fixing the bad vibes in a museum, because the art is unhappy. It’s called Please Don’t Touch the Art and it just dropped in November.

 

Matt Dovey

Peter?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Uh, Yeah. My name is Peter Adrian Behravesh I’m an Iranian American writer , editor, musician, audio producer, narrator.  I was the audio producer for Podcastle for just about four years from April 2018 to May 2022. Before that, I was an associate editor. For Escape Pod. My day job is in editing, I currently edit nonfiction titles. Mostly mind, body, spirit and environmental advocacy books. And I write all sorts of stuff. We will get into that a little bit later.

 

Matt Dovey

I reckon we might. So we had a bit of a conversation over the email about which story you were going to select between you and we settled on the Raven Sister. Why this one?

 

Summer Fletcher

Because being a narrator is like shouting into a hole. No, I’m kidding. I remember the tale of the three ravens from the Jim Henson storyteller series. This is version has the thematic stuff that I find really compelling, but its very very different from the kind of story you tell a little kid. It’s kind of like that into the woods feeling were like a fairy tale is the starting point but story is what the tale means like 20 or 30 years later when you’re remembering rather than learning. certain lines stuck with me like Windows papered over with pages from books, obsolete wisdom, or like when the Morningstar said this would have been a rabbit’s foot, but that’s not the world we live in anymore. It’s a sense of like, looking for something when you sort of remember the rules that are going to help you succeed, but the environment has become something else. Or your understanding of the environment has become something else. That really resonated. That’s why I wanted to do this story.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

So I’ll be honest, this one was just before my time and I had not listened to or read it prior to Summer suggesting it, but I really enjoyed it. Of course, like Nassos has other stories. This one has, you know, an ethereal, kind of dreamlike quality. But I also found myself appreciating its elliptical nature, the way, the way we move through what seems to be the same story multiple times but with different perspectives, different information added in.

And I also really appreciate it Tanja’s narration. It was spot on, as always, so I just I thoroughly enjoyed this one and I’m glad that this gave me the opportunity, given the excuse to listen to it.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, any excuse to run a Nassos Story. I mean, now the only author to have been featured twice on these anniversary episodes, which I think says something, doesn’t it?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Absolutely.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, no, I felt that whole different. Telling the story three ways I found really interesting because it’s… it’s almost like a Rashomon but not from different characters but from different states of mind instead, which is really interesting. And the, the use of cornet or versus and everything and the number of blocks, give an almost sort of like religious archetypal feel with it as well didn’t it? So, it’s almost like sort of the four Gospels of the Raven Sister or something wasn’t it? It was really, I mean, yeah, fascinating, fascinating to read. And as with a lot of Nassos’s stories, I sort of found it’s the ambiguity and the lack of clarity is often kind of the point, because its more about the atmosphere and the ambience and not giving you a neat clear answer because the world very rarely gives you neat, clear answers.

 

Summer Fletcher

But I think like then the neat clear answers are what you bring to the reading at the time you read it, and like, religious texts or like fairy tales, or anything that you, that you touch points on a timeline with, like you’re gonna bring different truths to the reading each time and like that’s, it gives you a lot of room to experience that as you need to.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah and also that answer and that truth is therefore *your* job as the reader rather than the stories job or the author’s job.  I’ll say the phrase it occurred to me earlier, what I was reading again was it’s less unreliable narrator such as unreliable narrative. You’re really not sure what aspect of it is true. But then all aspects of it are true and you know, the one that strikes a chord with you like you say is going to depend on the perspective you’re bringing at the time and the state of mind you’re in.

 

Summer Fletcher

It’s such a great example of like, empathy, right? To be able to tell the same story from all these different perspectives, even if they’re conflicting.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah. And from the same character, essentially. It all comes from the sister, doesn’t it?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I’m very much looking forward to revisiting it and seeing what else resonates, what else I bring to it. What else it brings to me.

 

Matt Dovey

A lot of Nassos’s stories have that sort of quality about them, they’re always kind of a slightly dreamlike state. And what strikes a chord with you at the time it very much depends on your own frame of mind and everything as well. I mean, we ran it was Fixer, Worker Singer we ran three months ago for Jen R. Albert’s selection. And that again, very sort of dreamlike and almost like very fairy tale-ish, again with the different roles in it and everything are very archetypal, you know, the characters are all named for their role in that. And almost it almost feels like the character’s are named for their roles here, like, each of the brothers has their name and their one defining feature and so they almost become representative of like a state of mind as well, rather than necessarily characters in and of themselves.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I’m biased, but Fixer, Worker is one of my favourite Nassos stories, probably because it was the first one I ever encountered but also because I partially narrated it. But you know, at the risk of repeating things that you said a few months ago, that one as well, just, something about Nassos’s ability to capture… I don’t know how, how to make a story dream like. He clearly does and it’s it’s just a beautiful thing.

 

Summer Fletcher

It seems like the contrast of like these really heavy, dark, kind of puncturing themes with really beautiful dreamy gilded language but then also like a sense of irony about it, the whole thing because, you know, there are funny moments and there are terrifying moments. And the characters all kind of know that they’re in it to be this thing, and they’re like Alright, yeah let’s go.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah there’s sort of that meta awareness throughout it as well almost isn’t there? That knows it’s a story and leans into it.

 

Summer Fletcher

But it’s not just like the narrator speaking to the audience. There’s no like fourth wall. It’s kind of like when we’re in a situation that we’ve been in before. We’re like, alright, I kind of know how this is going to go. And you can kind of protect yourself with that little bit of wryness. And I think that that might be another way to accomplish the dreaminess of it all. I’m not caring about physics. I’m sure that helps.

 

Matt Dovey

And just, just the casual, throwaway levels of imagination and everything and it’s… it always feels like Nassos’s stories are set in a world that’s like, about 15 degrees turn from ours. Like, it’s not the upside down or anything complicated. It’s just, it’s very recognisably ours. We’ve just tilted slightly. Ribbons did the same as well as my favourite of his stories that we’ve run.

 

Summer Fletcher

So one in conversation with Carmen Maria Machado’s The Husband Stitch

 

Matt Dovey

The Husband Stitch yeah, but from the transmasc perspective and is also like this one, very grounded in war, and sort of ideas of being a soldier and the military life and everything. And it feels like a familiar country, but it’s entirely invented and you can’t quite put your finger on it and it just somehow it being at that slightly different angle. It’s like having a light at an odd angle in a room and how it illuminates the architecture in the room differently with the shadows it throws is it’s that in fictive form it’s, it’s a hell of a talent. And it does it just, it puts situations you know, make something that is very dreamlike like this, also very grounded in the emotion whilst also bringing up emotions that you couldn’t have in just a normal literary fiction for ones for better words of non fantastical setting. It’s a Yeah,

 

Summer Fletcher

I definitely have to make room for it. Like in literary fiction, like I read You Too Can Have a Body Like Mine, which I think is actually about eating disorders but when I read it and when I read it with my friends we all got very strong like trans dysphoria feelings from it, and there’s like this really strange-  it’s almost like a Premee Mohammed story where like it’s it’s mostly real, but there’s something like totally wild happening and you can sort of trace how we got to the crazy part but… it becomes a little bit surreal. So like there’s, there’s, it’s definitely like a feature that shows up in like, across genres. This is a tool that everyone can play with if they really want to.

 

Matt Dovey

It’s good, you know like with this story and with any others, because it just when it puts you slightly off kilter, and you can’t rely on the ground under your feet that frees you up to sort of see things in a way that you wouldn’t be open to necessarily otherwise. I think there’s an age but keeping you off balance. That’s how we can get under your defences, isn’t it?

 

Summer & Peter:

Mmhmm

 

Matt Dovey

No, I’m always happy to have a chance to speak about Nassos’s stories again, because I yeah, if there’s any author in the world who I just, it’s not even envy, like I wouldn’t want to write like Nassos because then I’d be denied the chance to read his stories. Like I’m perfectly happy just sitting here and admiring in an awestruck fashion. I, Yeah,

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

You’re more evolved than I am. I am definitely envious

 

Matt Dovey

It’s only because I know that I… There’s no point in me… I just couldn’t ever, just couldn’t get close.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I couldn’t either. Let’s be real. I’d rather write like myself, but I’m just grateful that histories exists in the world and that we can experience them.

 

Summer Fletcher

It’s weird reading things like as a writer also because like some of it is like I want to learn this technique on this. I’m so jealous that you achieve this, but it’s also being able to recognise exactly how special something is. It’s kind of like you’re dancing together in a way and there’s certainly some joy to be gleaned from dancing with someone who’s at your level. But, like, if you’ve got someone who’s like, way better than you. It’s fun in a totally different way.

 

Matt & Peter:

Yeah.

 

Summer Fletcher

And just like making room for that without like any of the self-judgments about hierarchical talent or awards yourself. Yeah.

 

Matt Dovey

Ultimately, I enjoy reading their stories more than I’d enjoy writing like them I think because I just enjoy them so very much. I just, they roll around your head for days, don’t they I think.  There’s so much to chew on.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I know we’ve already spent a lot of time on this. I’m just gonna say, I do think one of the benefits of, you know, deepening your understanding of the craft. You might lose the pleasure that you would have gained from much simpler stories, but you know work like this, you can appreciate on a much deeper level. And so, any loss you might get from over scrutinising popcorn entertainment, you’re able to gain this this deeper greater appreciation for the truly beautiful magical works.

 

Matt Dovey

Ironically probably seeing it from three different perspectives on three different frames of mind. Yeah, depending on what variable you’re approaching. Um. Lest this just become 40 minutes of us spouting ever increasing compliments

 

Summer Fletcher

It’s like the new Nassos podcast and I like the motif

 

Matt Dovey

There are worse fates to end up in. Let’s move on to you two. How did you both come to be involved with Podcastle or then, We’ll start with you Summer because you’ve started here first. So you want to tell us the story of your path to the Castle.

 

Summer Fletcher

Okay, so I built the timeline because like having checklists and stuff is very important to me. 2012 a friend of mine introduced me to Pseudopod. I was kind of shit posting for lack of a better term in that face group, Facebook group and Alex and I ended up chatting a bit. The free hugs t shirt was made. I asked like hey, do you guys need help with anything, so I just kind of getting into narration and that’s usually my opener for trying to get to know people and they said Cast of Wonders needs slushers and I’m like, Great! I’m gonna go over there.

 

Started working at Cast of Wonders slushing for there. My first host spot there was Raptor Boy because there was some stuff about paganism I thought I needed more context in order to really appreciate what the story was doing. And Marguerite was like, you clearly have feelings about this. Why don’t you just get on stage? I was like, I have a microphone. I’ll do that. And then Rachel said, Oh, you’re working at Cast of Wonders? We wanted you at Podcastle. I was like, okay, so I did both of those. And then I committed to Podcastle full time.

 

I there was a meeting like a couple of weeks after I started Podcastle where they want to gather all the slush readers together and talk about like, you know, education and how can we support you and blah, blah and like, because again I was shit posting in the pseudopod group. It’s like how do you advance? and I got a DM from Marguerite saying like, I’ll get back to you on that and then Graham left which answered that question. And I became assistant editor and neither Jen or Khaalidah wanted to host so I was like, I have a microphone so I just kind of hopped in. That was in 2017 and I stayed through 2021

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, end of December ’21.  Go on then Peter.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Ah, yeah. Summer set the bar high and I feel like I need to do a bit of a timeline as well and mine is not as interesting.

 

I first heard of and subbed to Podcastle in 2013. It wasn’t until 2017 that I was introduced. To Divya by a mutual friend and became an associate editor for Escapepod. And because I was already slushing for Escapepod when Khaalidah was leaving, and there was an opening for an audio producer, I heard about it, you know, through the EA grapevine, emailed Summer, and unfortunately, I think that email thread is lost to time. I wanted to revisit it, but I couldn’t find it.

 

But the rest is history. The first episode I produced was Iron Aria by Merc Fen Wolfmore. That was also that year 2018 was when I narrated my first story for Escapepod – an Aimee Ogden story Fire Rode the Cold Wind, which I still love. 2019 I started narrating for Podcastle as well. I’m just gonna shout out a bunch of stories that I that I love. I might have …actually I think 2018 I did do some like full cast or group narrations.

 

But I narrated my first solo story for Podcastle in 2019 And that was When Leopards-Bane Came to the Door of Third Heaven by Vajra Chandrasekera. And just what a gorgeous story it’s still probably my favourite one that I’ve ever narrated. I think that’s when I left Escapepod and then yeah, continued as a producer and narrator into 2022, as I mentioned, narrated a couple of stories for Cast of Wonders, narrated a couple stories for Beneath Ceaseless Skies.

 

Oh! and I produced the first two episodes of CatsCast. Laura approached me about that back when it was just going to be an April Fool’s thing. And now… Now it’s its own thing which is beautiful to see.  I think that’s all the all the important stuff, but yeah,

 

Matt Dovey

It’s a hell of a role-call of authors to have its firsts isn’t it?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Oh, I know.

 

Matt Dovey

Like Amy & Vajra, I mean my goodness.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

And Nassos in there too!

 

Summer Fletcher

Um, when you first said like how are you two doing and I really wanted to shout out motherfucker I am content!

 

All talk/laugh simultaneously for a second

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Oh Yes!

 

Summer Fletcher

Oooh when I saw that in the slush pile I was like can we have this? I really want this! I thought they were gonna say no, but they didn’t. And it was like everyone else had been doing the full cast recording thing so I kind of regret not doing that one but I wanted to do this story instead. You Rapunzel was a great one

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah, that was that was a great one.

 

Matt Dovey

It was one of my favourite stories in all the years I’ve been definitely, definitely my favourite full cast recording.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

You got one of the best lines too man.

 

Matt Dovey

Oh, the Knight and his…I can’t remember exactly the line now about his sore like side

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah, shoot, it’s escaping me too.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah.

 

Summer Fletcher

I think it was Sir puppy kicker in that one.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah, everyone go listen to Yo! Rapunzel.

 

Matt Dovey

It’s kind of you and Cherae in the lead on that one. Isn’t it really Peter? It’s

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah,

 

Matt Dovey

to have such a laconic… consider, considering I mean, I presume you recorded your lines separately.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah,

 

Matt Dovey

We did just record our lines and send in.  It does sound like you’re so much in conversation like you’re just in that booth sharing that sort of energy and sort of wry looks across the microphones and I think it’s incredible.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I think Cherae’s narration came first and I just sort of played, played off of it. But, But yeah, that was a really like kind of a who’s who of Podcastle in terms of the narration.

 

Matt Dovey

It was incredible. It’s if I ever leave and I have to choose my episode is probably that one I’m going out because it’s just so funny. And so, It just says stuff in such a good gentle way. You know, it’s an important perspective as well on sort of romance and relationships and friendships and everything, but it’s just so fucking funny.

 

Summer Fletcher

It’s like the wry self awareness of the genre.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, it’s just it’s really my kind of humour that really dry humour. I absolutely bloody love it. Yes, everybody should go listen to Yo! Rapunzel, it’s incredible. Were you, had you sort of done audio work beforehand, then. So when the audio thing pops up, you’re like, Yes, I can do that. Or did you?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Oh, Sure. You’re asking me right?

 

Matt Dovey

Yes. Sorry, please.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah, so my… I mentioned I’m a musician. I’ve been singing, playing instruments as long as I can remember and my undergrad was actually in music and recording so I’ve done live sound engineering for music hadn’t really done anything exactly like this but already had the setup was very familiar with mixing, engineering, all of that producing

 

Matt Dovey

Knew your  onions already. Cool.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

So kind of a happy mix between two of my passions.

 

Matt Dovey

Well, I mean, you’ve got to have something to sustain you through four years of regular weekly workload. On pretty much voluntary basis. It’s it’s no small amount of work the audio production behind all of this and it’s

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

No

 

Matt Dovey

It’s a lot of pressure is on, like we were saying before we got on the call, you know, you’re the linchpin of the whole thing really. Without you there, the episode wouldn’t go out the door. It needs you to sit down on your on your backside in the seat and get the job done. So. Yeah, got to have something to sustain you.

 

Summer Fletcher

Priyah’s piece of advice before leaving with that we should try to stay three months ahead of schedule. I think we achieved that a couple of times. I don’t know how regularly

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah. We got there. We got there sometimes, but inevitably life gets in the way.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, tell me about it.

 

Summer Fletcher

Yeah

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

It’s got a lot of moving parts.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, an awful lot of moving… So many people involved between you know, you’ve not only got your author and all that sort of admin stuff, but then you narrator as well and all the audio production and yeah, it’s often stars aligning

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

It’s, it’s awful.

 

Matt Dovey

And I can’t believe the miracle managed to happen week in week out.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah, every once in a while. There would be an episode that Summer both hosted and narrated. And, inevitably, that was the easiest one because first of all, you know, your, your narrations and your hotspots are always super clean, but it would also be in super early and I could just like sit down basically listen to the whole thing. Throw in the music and that was it.

 

Matt Dovey

What surprised you about working at Podcastle and that you didn’t expect going in?  We’ll go back to you again Summer.

 

Summer Fletcher

Oh goodness. What surprised me about working at Podcastle? There wasn’t… It was mostly like a how much personal growth there was because like Jen was really good at infrastructure. We already had a lot of advice and a lot of resources. Just a question of having somebody who had time to go through everything. Like when we updated the website. So there was all the crosslinking of like narrators and stuff that was me and like two other people like hand updating each individual episode website. There was a backlog of Narrator auditions. Nobody had listened to those. So I went through when I was like, these people are pretty clean. Let’s see who’s actually reliable in addition to being clean. And then like whenever we were stuck for a narrator if we couldn’t get someone perfect, I had a list of like 10 or 12 people who were like, if we need something, we’re going to be able to get a really good reliable turn out from these folks.

 

Yeah, and being… when the infrastructure is there, and I’m really good at like, you know, getting the task I’m going to do it like the executing is really where I feel most comfortable, but like, it was like, being able to present well, was really, the thing I needed to grow the most with. My being in the host was like a kind of synchronous thing. It’s like, oh, here’s the thing you’re terrible at now you have to do it every week. In terms of like, you know, Podcastle’s audience and reputation in light of social media, in light of the discourse and less of what’s happening in the world. It’s like, I stopped asking the question like, do I like this? And started asking the question, Who is the story for? and trying to speak to that to the best of my understanding and take my own subjectivity out of it entirely?

 

I don’t know if I ever met those expectations but trying to hold all of them and do right by the community caused like a lot of personal change and a lot of unpacking I don’t think I would have done otherwise if I was just reading the stories on my own. But like, learning to evolve and to listen and to set things aside and, and to reach out for help. Also, because it’s their story I didn’t understand like, I’m like, I don’t know why you picked this?, Tell me a bit about what resonated for you. And I’ll try to represent that as best as I can.

 

You asked me ahead of time, like how I built the host spots that and I struggled with that for a while too, because like Al’s whole thing is hope and when you’re writing for horror, like it’s really easy to see like, this is going to be the, the highlight and the undertone that really makes the painting pop. For Podcastle…I kept putting out like, polls on social media, like do you want to hear the author notes? Do you want to hear what I have to say? And they always came back to 50/50 and I did a couple different times.  They were always back 50/50 no matter how many people have voted, and one person I don’t remember who you are I’m so sorry. But thank you for that for piping up. They said that they want to hear something that’s kind of slightly adjacent to the story so that when they get to the end of the story, they can kind of sit with their own feelings and unpack it in their own way. So, what I’ve tried to do is like, do the introduction get out of the way as fast as possible so people who would just want to be there for the story can be there for the story. And then if they want to unpack something slightly related, we can do that at the end. And there’s a choice there, including the choice to completely skip or ignore me. So like, being able to kind of like create that professional distance, and they still talk about things that were real and authentic to me, but like that didn’t contradict or get in the, get in the way of the story or get in the way of people’s ability to relate to the story and to like just let things kind of simmer at the end of it.

 

Matt Dovey

You know, it’s important to give a story space to resonate. I often find that if I’ve watched a film or something, I will sit and watch read the credits just so I can sit with it for those few minutes. It just gives me that space with that bit of music or whatever. It’s important to let… and you know when I when I read for the hosting and everything I never read it and sit down and write I read it and then think about it for a couple of days. And then it just sort of rattle around in there like a stone getting turned over by the tide until it’s polished and smooth. And then I can sit down and write it. You need that time for it to rattle around. But

 

Summer Fletcher

Yeah, and what I would do is like I read the story, I’ll write my thoughts immediately. Let that sit for a couple days go back until like no, that’s, that’s not for public consumption. That’s inappropriate. That is not true based on these other factors. It’s kind of like, make it more suitable for presentation.

 

Matt Dovey

And that’s something I need to work on personally to improve myself. Because Jesus yeah, I’ve had that one a few times. It’s, it’s a responsibility to the audience, I think to the author as well. I never want to be the person who ruins the, you know, getting a story on Podcastle is a big thing should be a big thing, should be a great day for you. I don’t want to be the person to ruin that by opening my mouth and saying something stupid, you know, so I’m always trying to be considerate to the story and the author and think about what they were trying to do and why this was so important to them that they felt compelled to write it out as a story. You got to be sympathetic to it haven’t you? I’m not sure I mentioned

 

Summer Fletcher

Yeah, and excited about it whatever definition it is like if you’re talking to somebody at a party and they’re talking about something that’s really important to them, like, what’s your posture as a listener and the host spot is very much like that.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I always appreciated the perspective that you each brought to – you always had something interesting to say about the story without ever feeling to me at least prescriptive or didactic or anything like that.

 

Matt Dovey

I mean, I’m not sure I’m as successful as Summer in sort of stepping out of the way. I think I, I sometimes just spout my own philosophies a bit too directly. I’m not as good at being adjacent of the story. So instead of trying to go sideways, I tend to try and just go deep and sort of mine my own vulnerabilities almost and, sort of think about what this meant to me and sort of what reaction it brought up in me and why it felt so powerful to me and there’s been quite a few. So, I’ve spoken in a few spots over the last 18-20 months about you know my kids getting diagnosed autistic and neurodivergent then *I’ve* been diagnosed autistic and neurodivergent and my wife has, you know, the whole identity crisis there and sort of suddenly realising that I’ve always been seeing the world sideways and a lot of stories. I can sort of see from that perspective. And, you know, I can’t tell everybody how they’re gonna react to a story, but I can tell them how I reacted to a story and maybe that will inform that they can have a reaction as deep as well. You know, if I’m, my reaction might not be obvious from the reading, but it’s filtered through my personal experience. They can filter the story through their personal as well, and get a similar sort of personal reaction.

 

Summer Fletcher

Something I really like about Peter …Peters hotspots also like in breaking down the story. There’s a very like, it’s very, like the clarity of thought is there and like, the observations are made in this space that creates like a lot of room for the story to be what it is. So, I think like all of us brought not only our perspective and our voice but also like the mood and the vibe. And not none of us have to be anything in particular. But, keeping in mind that it is it’s for the audience, but like we can’t if we tried to – like if we’d all tried to write Nassos stories they wouldn’t hit right because we’re not Nassos.

 

Matt Dovey

No

 

Summer Fletcher

Same thing with the hotspots, whatever we have to say it’s the right thing to say.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, that has been a lot of sort of process for me over the last sort more or less years I’ve settled into it. It’s just trusting …that what I want to say is, is the only thing I could say, you know, whatever comes out is that is my instinctive honest reaction and what more can I give him that you know?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

And there’s value in that.

 

Summer Fletcher

And you listen back to it like I listened to the hotspot I had for this story and I talked about like, change there’s no normal like the caterpillar will never be… the butterfly can never be a caterpillar but the butterfly understands that caterpillar is like, oh! I was smart back then. Um, it’s like you think your past self believes in your future self because they’re doing things because they believe that you’re going to you know, reap the benefit. So don’t be afraid to listen back every once in a while. Like to see what you’d like to refine.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Right I will

 

Matt Dovey

To you then Peter, What surprised you about working at Podcastle?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I mean, it’s such an interesting question. I’ve been kind of thinking about all of this past few days. You know, going into this, I knew that it was a labour of love. You mentioned the volunteer aspect of that and I was certainly very aware of that. But you know, labour of love is one of those phrases that gets tossed around a lot and kind of loses meaning but I think that is very much the case. Not just at Podcastle, but at Escape Artists more broadly.

 

I was surprised by the love, I could feel the love in in the work and everything everyone was doing and you know, the passion they brought to each story. And right away you know, I felt like I have found this new family. Like it is a family of really great, really kind people doing this because they love it. You know I mentioned my day job is in publishing and I really enjoy that as well. And sometimes it feels like a labour of love but also you know, every publisher I work for, at the end of the day, they’re trying to make money, right. And that’s, that’s not the case at Escape Artists. You know, it’s, it’s so wonderful that Podcastle and others are able to you know, at least nominally pay narrator’s and, and were able to pay …I still say we that’s that’s the point I’m trying to make here. I still feel like part of the family and I’ll get to like you know, me leaving in everything but you know, the fact that we’re able to pay pro rates and pay our narrators and pay our slushers and, and all of that, like is fantastic. And at the end of the day, I still feel like everyone would be a part of it if, if it weren’t for that.

 

And yeah, it was. It was very, very difficult for me to leave for that reason. And I stand by my decision, but it was it was this almost existential…existential crisis of being like I… I’m going to say no to something that’s objectively good in my life. I’m going to say no to this, this family that I love that loves me, that is a is a force for good and positivity in that even when I’m frustrated that, you know, a given narration quality requires me to put in an extra hour or two of work or whatever, like, I’m still so incredibly proud of the work I’m doing, you know. This is getting more rambly and, and less coherent than I anticipated, but I think what I’m trying to articulate is that I…I knew going into it that this would be something that I enjoyed and would help me meet a lot of cool people and would be a good, good experience in terms of the writing community, but I had no idea just how much I would love it and specifically how much I would love the people.

 

Matt Dovey

I would have interrupted you from the rambling if I hadn’t been choking up.

 

Summer Fletcher

I think the biggest thing I remember about working with you Peter is that you’re always you’re very easy to work with, um, you’re very keen, you’re very timely. I never felt like if I had an unusual request or if we want to do something like let’s experiment with Foley. Like I wanted to give you opportunities where you could be more creative and like jump on stage and like when we started doing the Nawruz episodes and like you have a lot to contribute to these stories. You have editorial experience. Let’s get you on stage a little bit more. What are some of the things that you learned at Podcastle that you’ve been able to take with you to other gigs or like, you know, what you can thank us like, like, How, How did you benefit? Because like you’re very easy to work with what did you get out of it?

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

If anything, it’s made me want to try to be even, even easier to work with. But the things you described are all things I ,I pride myself on and I’ve been bringing that into other professional settings or other relationships you know, I

 

Summer Fletcher

Are we allowed to talk about labour organising stuff?

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah I don’t mind. My first story here was about union stuff. Go for it. You are allowed to express your own personal opinion.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

I am I mean, I am pro union.

 

Matt Dovey

I’m Pro union.

 

Summer Fletcher

Yeah Ok.  I think that comes across in our care for beings.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Yeah, I mean, I’m more conscious of the time because there’s so many places I want to go that would…there’s so many deep places we can go with this conversation and I will just say that like it is very important to me to be easy to work with without being a doormat. And that is a balance that I’ve really strived for. And I do think that working Podcastle helped me with that. It never felt like it you know, it’s not like they’re a bunch of like, really forceful personalities in the castle who were like I have to like rollover for anything like that. It was always very collaborative. And I it gave me a greater appreciation for collaboration and a greater understanding of how I can contribute to that.

 

Matt Dovey

Time is running distressingly short, we have three minutes left, which I’ve got about 20 minutes worth of conversation after me at this point. So that’s really upsetting [Same Matt, same – The Transcriber]. I was gonna ask you loads more about your fantasy novel that I know you’ve been writing Peter. I don’t know if we’ve got much time to go into much depth. Do you quickly want to give people a precis.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Okay?

 

Matt Dovey

And like what you’re working on that we can afford too soon where people can find more about you.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Sure, and I’ll be very quick because obviously want to make sure Summer has time too. Short version is I have this fantasy setting I’ve been developing based on 18th century Iran. Interplanetary travel is possible. It’s it’s basically Dieselpunk or as I jokingly call it NAFT punk because naft is the Persian word for oil. But yeah, there’s a short story that I wrote in it that’s out in, Well originally came out in a small anthology but was re-released as audio from Starship Sofa last year. I have written a novel which I will be shopping around after I finish my own choice of games, interactive novel, which I’m very close to finishing and will be out sometime next year. I also write a lot of academic stuff about Persian literature and specifically, I have an essay coming out in the Oxford University Handbook of Monsters and Classical Myths. Believe that we’ll be out in the UK next month and out in the US in March. And then there’s another one from Bloomsbury that I don’t know when it will be out. I feel like I’m missing things. Find me. Peter Adrian Behravesh.com. I’m still on Twitter for some reason, but I’m also on Blue Sky at Behravesh and on Instagram at pabehravesh so

 

Matt Dovey

Summer you’ve got 60 seconds. What are you doing? Where can we find you tell us about the games.

 

Summer Fletcher

Um, I will say rest is really important. Do it before you get burned out. Turning the the soil is very important when people have helped you help other people. If you’re doubting your own opinion or whether or not you’re going to do good, there are three definitions of best that are very important one is the most popular, one is the most impactful and one is your favourite. All three of those meet the definition of best. Hold that when you’re feeling doubt hold those three things to be true.

 

I’m working on a game that started as Witcher versus Les Mis and now it’s probably Witcher versus Disco Elysium which is going to be interactive fiction. Still riding horses, went to Mongolia and was pretty awesome. If you want to know more summer fletcher.com Sign up for my newsletter because I talk about stuff there rather than social media.

 

Matt Dovey

Yeah, social media is bonfire these days. I try and avoid it. We’ve got less than one minute left and an indiscriminate number of seconds. So I will just very quickly then say thank you both very much. That has been a really fascinating conversation. I wish we could have had another half an hour on it frankly.

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Likewise,

 

Matt Dovey

Summer Fletcher Peter Adrian Behravesh, thank you for coming back to the castle and thank you for all the years of service you gave us in the first place.

 

Summer Fletcher

Happy holidays. Happy New year!

 

Peter Adrian Behravesh

Likewise!